At this rate, California Gov. Gavin Newsom may wind up running for president as a moderate Republican.
He backed down after conservative pundit Ben Shapiro challenged the governor on an inflammatory tweet from his press office blasting the Jan. 7 shooting of Renee Good by an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent in Minnesota as “STATE. SPONSORED. TERRORISM.”
“Your press office tweeted out that it was state-sponsored terrorism,” said Mr. Shapiro in the Thursday interview on the governor’s podcast. “That sort of thing makes our politics worse. I mean, it does. Our ICE officers obviously are not terrorists. A tragic situation is not state-sponsored terrorism.”
Mr. Newsom nodded throughout Mr. Shapiro’s remarks before saying, “Yeah, I think that’s fair.”
He also said that he doesn’t support abolishing ICE, putting himself at odds with Democrats such as New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and insisted that California has cooperated with ICE agents in relation to the state prison system.
For the most part, the Democratic governor defended his state’s left-wing policies and took shots at the Trump administration, but the exchange over ICE was reminiscent of his retreat last year on transgender athletes in a dialogue with conservative campus activist Charlie Kirk.
Pressed by Kirk, Mr. Newsom agreed that the influx of female-identifying males in women’s sports is “deeply unfair,” sparking outrage on the left.
The podcast, “This is Gavin Newsom,” has become known for occasionally hosting right-wing figures, including Steve Bannon and Michael Savage, since launching last February as the governor lays the groundwork for an anticipated 2028 presidential bid.
In the latest episode, Mr. Shapiro also raised the transgender issue with Mr. Newsom, who called for compassion for the gender-diverse and pointed out that California’s transgender-rights-in-education law was passed before he became governor.
“The fundamental question that lies at the root of all of this is the one you’re not wanting to answer, which is whether boys can become girls,” Mr. Shapiro said.
Mr. Newsom replied: “Yeah, well, I think, uh, for the grace of God,” adding, “I think it’s been the case for generations for time immemorial. God bless.”
Mr. Shapiro refused to drop the matter, saying, “This isn’t a hard one,” prompting Mr. Newsom to condemn “hate and bigotry.”
“I understand the political potency of it,” the governor said. “We’re talking about so few people that are struggling with gender-identity issues, a lot of remarkable people, a lot of wildly successful people, and they’ve gone on in their lives to have incredible lives. There’s so much hate and bigotry.”
Mr. Shapiro noted that “there are lots of terrible people who say lots of terrible things, but it is not an act of bigotry to say that a boy cannot become a girl. That’s not an act of bigotry. That’s an act of rationality.”
Said Mr. Newsom: “I respect your point of view. But good people disagree on this in a lot of states, not just California, with well-established rules that, again, predate me.”
16 states tax their LOW wage earners more than California taxes its HIGH wage earners. 40% of the middle class in Texas pays more in taxes than they do in California.
California’s progressive tax rates support working families. pic.twitter.com/qHOGAyVUEa
— Gavin Newsom (@GavinNewsom) January 16, 2026
Mr. Newsom defended California’s economy, saying it has risen from the sixth- to the fourth-largest in the world on his watch and applauding San Francisco-based OpenAI’s recent decision to expand its operations in the state.
Asked why he hasn’t dramatically lowered California’s income tax, Mr. Newsom defended the state’s progressive tax code, saying 16 other states have higher taxes on low earners than California.
“Let’s talk about those 16 states,” said Mr. Newsom, prompting Mr. Shapiro to ask, “Why don’t we talk about California?”
Mr. Newsom replied: “”Let’s talk about lowering those tax rates in those 16 states,” igniting hoots on social media.
“Ben Shapiro asks about lowering California income taxes, and Gavin Newsom FLAT-OUT DEFLECTS, hiding behind other states rather than defending the mess he created at home,” said conservative TV and podcast host David J. Harris Jr. on X.
Some highlights from the conversation with Gavin Newsom. pic.twitter.com/pktleEScyX
— The Ben Shapiro Show (@BenShapiroShow) January 16, 2026
One thing on which Mr. Newsom and Mr. Shapiro agreed is that Republicans have a tough road ahead of them in the November midterms.
“Republicans have no chance in this midterm, right?” asked Mr. Newsom.
Replied Mr. Shapiro: “They are in for a world of hurt right now in the midterms,” citing the GOP’s razor-thin House majority, the trend toward the left in swing districts and the absence of President Trump on the ballot.
Later in the interview, the governor circled back to his press team’s “state-sponsored terrorism” blast, saying he wanted to discuss “how things are weaponized … and how you indicted a little bit my press office” before he took a shot at Mr. Trump.
“I appreciated the direct point you made on that. I’m not naive about that. I think about that all the time: When we put up a mirror to Trump, we become more like him and are complicit in that,” Mr. Newsom said.
